I feel honored and humbled that you would not
only read my writings, but take the time to
rebut and respond.
I have great respect for you; I reserve the
right to respond in kind.
6:15 PM, January
31, 2007
DE Replies: I thank you so much for printing my
article on your website even though I tried to
point out some factual errors in your article.
That is special.
R' Aron's
Talmid said...
UOJ is right on his view of R' Aron not
permitting shtreimlech in the bais medrash on
Shabbos (when else) until 1957-8.
7:41 PM, January
31, 2007
Anonymous
said...
I don't care much for the topic at hand, but
I am very impressed with the tone of the Rabbi's
letter. He discusses the issue and doesn't
attack the messenger. I don't know who he is,
but G-d bless him.
8:24 PM, January
31, 2007
Joseph
said...
With all the respect to the rabbi, you
repeat stories about other rabbis that we have
no way of verifying if they're true.
I grew up with stories about this and that, as I
matured I realized that for the most part they
are exaggerations at best, and outright untruths
at worst.
This does not minimize the fact that rabbis
today, whether they are Kabbalists, Hassidim, or
just plain rabbis, they have all let us down.
On something so basic to our survival as a
people as child molestation, all of them decided
it just was not that important to deal with.
Frankly, I'm tired of these rabbi-stories of who
did what or said what 100-1000 years ago.
What have they done for us today that affects
our lives? Or rather the question should be,
what have they not done that they should have
done?
8:36 PM, January
31, 2007
DE replies: I don't know if I let anyone down.
I've been fighting these battles for over two
decades, beginning with Mond. and including J
Cit whom I put in jail. I've also stuck it to a
few other people, besides working with people
who really tried to get better. The problem is
not all rabbis. The problem is much worse than
that. There is a culture of destroying children
that goes far beyond sexual molestation. I heard
this from gedolei hador. We are so anxious to
save the Torah and produce gedolim that we
created a hideous system that consumes most of
us. Kollel for the vast majority of people is
wrong. The lack of training for a job is wrong.
Shidduch is a disaster at least for girls.
Divorce is a feast for certain professionals and
a chamber of horrors for everyone else. The next
generation will have poor kashruth standards and
serious mamzerim problem, and who is doing
anything about these problems? At least, I do a
little bit what I can.
With all due respect to Rav Eidensohn, the
issue isn't so much whether Judaism has a
mystical tradition. It does, and the mesorah
points out how dangerous the pardes can
be.
I find it interesting, though, that R. Eidensohn
doesn't mention what I feel is one of UOJ's
central points in his post about
Kabbala/Chassidus (which is more about non
Jewish concepts and practices in Chassidus than
about the general subject of Jewish mysticism),
the allegation that Moshe de Leon was the true
author of the Zohar. While there may be
references to kabbalistic concepts within the
corpus of traditional Judaism that predate de
Leon, one cannot find reference to a work called
The Zohar. While de Leon undoubtedly was working
from some traditional concepts, is it k'firah
to question that Shimon Bar Yochai was the
author of the Zohar?
Also, if the Zohar and Kabbala can take "credit"
for the Chassidic movement, they also have to
bear some of the responsibility for the
Sabbatean debacle.
8:47 PM, January
31, 2007
DE replies: I don't like the word kefira. The
sanctity of the Zohar is accepted because it was
accepted by the Vilna Gaon and the great
Sefardic and Hassidic leaders. Shabsei Tsevi was
a false Messiah and he dabbled in Kabbala. Is
therefore Rabbi Luria responsible for that? I
don't accept this. If somebody reveals something
and somebody twists it who do we blame?
Anonymous
said...
I wish that Agudah would give dissenters
same space in their domain as UOJ give to
somebody who express an oposite opinion. In any
case, the Rabbi was very respectfull and
answered to the point. I do not know much about
the Lakewood Yeshivah vis a vis Chasidism, but
some of what the Rabbi had said about Kabbala
and Judasim seems to be more in tune with what
we know then what UOJ had said about that. I was
not too comfortable reading the ideological part
of UOJ's article.
On the other hand, I totally agree that we
should eradicate any criminal activities in our
midst. It appears that there is some rampant
corruption and cover up in many sectors of
Orthodox Judaism. I fully support UOJ in the
effort to fight those phenomena.
10:09 PM, January
31, 2007
DE replies: This is the point. When rabbis make
Chilul HaShem people despise all rabbis, and
finally despise the Torah. Thus, we must
publicize the wicked but by so doing we save the
honor of the Torah.
Lakewood
Talmid said...
There is a more comtemporary issue with
Chassidishe in Lakewood. The type of chossid
trying to get into Lakewood & other Litvishe
yeshivos is not the same as in R' Aron's days.
Some Litvishe yeshivos had been completely
overrun by Chassidishe such as Beis Hatalmud &
Stamford and to a lesser extent some other
yeshivos. Roshei yeshiva then became careful not
to make the same mistake. Lakewood had a
population control method that capped the
Chassidim at about 10%. The modern day Chassidim
started coming in two forms, either metzuyonim
with admirable hasmodo or baalei kishron who are
terrible batlonim and even worse troublemakers.
Besides that Lakewood offers them many freedoms
not available in Villiamsburg, like driving
cars, these characters never had any hashgocho
where they came from and proceeded to destroy
the dormitory. That's what happens when you skip
high school and go straight to Beis Hatalmud at
14 where there is no real supervision. You then
come to Lakewood as an overgrown infant who
engages in waterfights at 3 am and runs around
spraying fire extinguishers while yelling
"Hatzula". Some of you are sober and others are
high on vodka and smash the empty bottles as
part of the festivities. They were a bunch of
nocturnal vampires who arose the next morning at
11 am to prepare for mikva. Even Lazer
Stefansky's Swiss accented monotone at 10 am
ordering them to get up had no impact. Since R'
Shneur held it is a nefoshos shayla to throw
anyone out because they'll never find a
shidduch, it took years for the roshei yeshiva
to finally move on one bezunderra bad bunch that
actually sparked fistfights with neighboring
rooms who could never sleep. There were some
Litvishe that were bad news but they either
stayed in Brooklyn most of the week oe were
partying in Atlantic City. They didn't hang out
to destroy the seviva. This is the reason why
Chassidishe were farhered only by R' Yisroel
Neuman who is the toughest and he would test
them on the entire masechta. But even that
couldn't filter out the party animals with the
biggest potential. I never had a problem with
Chassidim until I learned in Lakewood.
10:55 PM, January
31, 2007
Lakewooder
said...
Carlebach follower,
I don't think you have accurate information.
First off, both R' Aron & the Brisker Rov had
problems with Lubavitch starting with the first
sicha that was published in 1952. These geonim
saw what was coming. Even still, I have many
reasons to believe that R' Aron did not punish
Carlebach for visits to the rebbe. An alter
Telzer, Rav Shochet, who later became a Lubob
had a son learning by R' Aron. R' Aron knew he
was visiting M.M. Schneursohn and even gave him
a wink once. R' Aron did have a problem with
Carlebach's musical obsession which he felt
would be Carlebach's undoing, according to some
other R' Aron talmidim I spoke to. A talmid of
R' Aron who is no longer frum, Aron Gleich,
relates another story to me which is plausable
but perhaps too unsavory for me to repeat in
public.
11:04 PM, January
31, 2007
DE replies: Rav Shochet had a child cured
miraculously by the rebbe, because Rebetsin
Shochet was the daughter of a very prominent
Lubavitcher rabbi and she insisted that the
rebbe be consulted when the doctors failed. The
family then became Lubavitchers. The son was a
genius and Reb Aharon loved him because he could
understand Reb Aharon, which was a rarity.
Anonymous
said...
The Great UOJ,
It's nice you posted the response, or a
"rebuttal" to your assertions in your previous
posting titled "The Enemy Within-Part
Three-Chassidism Is Not Judaism". I say this to
highlight an important ingredient that I feel is
being pushed aside, neglected, and
misrepresented by Rabbi Dovid Eidensohn. If
you're going to debate your history and
knowledge of the Kabalistic element and origin,
just say so. Why, make it sound like this is
some awesome knockout against blogger UOJ.
Clearly the focus of UOJ's pursuit is for
children's safety and well being. UOJ expressed
the taboo of fakeness, deceit, corruption, and
murder - in the Jewish arena circles, but
particularly the epidemic of many Chasidim who
desecrate the name of Judiasim, and even the
many non-Chasidim who are doing the same. That
was UOJ's MAIN point I believe.
I do not think UOJ"s intentions was to knock
mysticism at all, but rather to bring focus and
attention to the Torah these impostor-Jews
(Chasidim and all included)are holding hostage.
I'm so sick and tired of hearing Rabbi stories
of a different era and time. It's 2007 and stop
bs' ing us with greatness pills. Who cares which
Rabbi was the greatest kabalistic sage, or who
founded mysticism. Is that that going to help us
fight against child molesters posing as rabbi's?
Will it stop Yeshiva's from stealing government
money? Is it going to stop Yoily and Shmiel from
leading a double life full of corruption and
disgrace? Will it be an encouragement to some
Rabbi who refuses to acknowledge any blame or
responsibility, even though the truth is so
brutally honest it smacks him on his fat behind
on his way out of the mikvah, to stand up for
Hashem's Torah?
Will it restore Judiasim to the way it ought to
be practiced?
Ronnie, welcome back.
UOJ - Show no mercy to these sick monsters who
are hijacking our religion.
'''''' Unforgiven ''''''''
12:51 AM, February
01, 2007
DE responds: When we attack certain rabbis they
point to every factual error and say, "See this
mistake. This guy is mistaken about the other
things also."
104 Comments - DE responds in red to certain comments but not to all of them.
I feel honored and humbled that you would not only read my writings, but take the time to rebut and respond.
I have great respect for you; I reserve the right to respond in kind.
6:15 PM, January 31, 2007
DE Replies: I thank you so much for printing my article on your website even though I tried to point out some factual errors in your article. That is special.
7:41 PM, January 31, 2007
8:24 PM, January 31, 2007
I grew up with stories about this and that, as I matured I realized that for the most part they are exaggerations at best, and outright untruths at worst.
This does not minimize the fact that rabbis today, whether they are Kabbalists, Hassidim, or just plain rabbis, they have all let us down.
On something so basic to our survival as a people as child molestation, all of them decided it just was not that important to deal with.
Frankly, I'm tired of these rabbi-stories of who did what or said what 100-1000 years ago.
What have they done for us today that affects our lives? Or rather the question should be, what have they not done that they should have done?
8:36 PM, January 31, 2007
DE replies: I don't know if I let anyone down. I've been fighting these battles for over two decades, beginning with Mond. and including J Cit whom I put in jail. I've also stuck it to a few other people, besides working with people who really tried to get better. The problem is not all rabbis. The problem is much worse than that. There is a culture of destroying children that goes far beyond sexual molestation. I heard this from gedolei hador. We are so anxious to save the Torah and produce gedolim that we created a hideous system that consumes most of us. Kollel for the vast majority of people is wrong. The lack of training for a job is wrong. Shidduch is a disaster at least for girls. Divorce is a feast for certain professionals and a chamber of horrors for everyone else. The next generation will have poor kashruth standards and serious mamzerim problem, and who is doing anything about these problems? At least, I do a little bit what I can.
I find it interesting, though, that R. Eidensohn doesn't mention what I feel is one of UOJ's central points in his post about Kabbala/Chassidus (which is more about non Jewish concepts and practices in Chassidus than about the general subject of Jewish mysticism), the allegation that Moshe de Leon was the true author of the Zohar. While there may be references to kabbalistic concepts within the corpus of traditional Judaism that predate de Leon, one cannot find reference to a work called The Zohar. While de Leon undoubtedly was working from some traditional concepts, is it k'firah to question that Shimon Bar Yochai was the author of the Zohar?
Also, if the Zohar and Kabbala can take "credit" for the Chassidic movement, they also have to bear some of the responsibility for the Sabbatean debacle.
8:47 PM, January 31, 2007
DE replies: I don't like the word kefira. The sanctity of the Zohar is accepted because it was accepted by the Vilna Gaon and the great Sefardic and Hassidic leaders. Shabsei Tsevi was a false Messiah and he dabbled in Kabbala. Is therefore Rabbi Luria responsible for that? I don't accept this. If somebody reveals something and somebody twists it who do we blame?
On the other hand, I totally agree that we should eradicate any criminal activities in our midst. It appears that there is some rampant corruption and cover up in many sectors of Orthodox Judaism. I fully support UOJ in the effort to fight those phenomena.
10:09 PM, January 31, 2007
DE replies: This is the point. When rabbis make Chilul HaShem people despise all rabbis, and finally despise the Torah. Thus, we must publicize the wicked but by so doing we save the honor of the Torah.
10:55 PM, January 31, 2007
I don't think you have accurate information. First off, both R' Aron & the Brisker Rov had problems with Lubavitch starting with the first sicha that was published in 1952. These geonim saw what was coming. Even still, I have many reasons to believe that R' Aron did not punish Carlebach for visits to the rebbe. An alter Telzer, Rav Shochet, who later became a Lubob had a son learning by R' Aron. R' Aron knew he was visiting M.M. Schneursohn and even gave him a wink once. R' Aron did have a problem with Carlebach's musical obsession which he felt would be Carlebach's undoing, according to some other R' Aron talmidim I spoke to. A talmid of R' Aron who is no longer frum, Aron Gleich, relates another story to me which is plausable but perhaps too unsavory for me to repeat in public.
11:04 PM, January 31, 2007
DE replies: Rav Shochet had a child cured miraculously by the rebbe, because Rebetsin Shochet was the daughter of a very prominent Lubavitcher rabbi and she insisted that the rebbe be consulted when the doctors failed. The family then became Lubavitchers. The son was a genius and Reb Aharon loved him because he could understand Reb Aharon, which was a rarity.
It's nice you posted the response, or a "rebuttal" to your assertions in your previous posting titled "The Enemy Within-Part Three-Chassidism Is Not Judaism". I say this to highlight an important ingredient that I feel is being pushed aside, neglected, and misrepresented by Rabbi Dovid Eidensohn. If you're going to debate your history and knowledge of the Kabalistic element and origin, just say so. Why, make it sound like this is some awesome knockout against blogger UOJ.
Clearly the focus of UOJ's pursuit is for children's safety and well being. UOJ expressed the taboo of fakeness, deceit, corruption, and murder - in the Jewish arena circles, but particularly the epidemic of many Chasidim who desecrate the name of Judiasim, and even the many non-Chasidim who are doing the same. That was UOJ's MAIN point I believe.
I do not think UOJ"s intentions was to knock mysticism at all, but rather to bring focus and attention to the Torah these impostor-Jews (Chasidim and all included)are holding hostage.
I'm so sick and tired of hearing Rabbi stories of a different era and time. It's 2007 and stop bs' ing us with greatness pills. Who cares which Rabbi was the greatest kabalistic sage, or who founded mysticism. Is that that going to help us fight against child molesters posing as rabbi's? Will it stop Yeshiva's from stealing government money? Is it going to stop Yoily and Shmiel from leading a double life full of corruption and disgrace? Will it be an encouragement to some Rabbi who refuses to acknowledge any blame or responsibility, even though the truth is so brutally honest it smacks him on his fat behind on his way out of the mikvah, to stand up for Hashem's Torah?
Will it restore Judiasim to the way it ought to be practiced?
Ronnie, welcome back.
UOJ - Show no mercy to these sick monsters who are hijacking our religion.
'''''' Unforgiven ''''''''
12:51 AM, February 01, 2007
DE responds: When we attack certain rabbis they point to every factual error and say, "See this mistake. This guy is mistaken about the other things also."